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<Serpente> <*>Do what thou wilt
shall be the whole of the Law.
Love is the law, love under
will.
<Serpente> <*>On behalf of the
users of Undernet Channel
#Thelema, allow me to extend a
hearty welcome to all.
<Serpente> <*>The topic for
tonights discussion is Chapter
I of Magick in Theory and
Practice, The Principles of
Ritual.
<Serpente> <*>You may find the
text at http://www.winternet.com
/~robin/magick01.html we
recommend that you bring the
text up on your web browser now
before we begin so that you may
refer to it.
<Serpente> <*>IRC is a difficult
medium to hold discussions of a
complex nature so we would like
to ask that everyone remain
focused on the topic at hand to
help us avoid distractions.
<Serpente> <*>The format of
the discussion is mostly
unmoderated. Rather than
lecture, our hope is to
encourage everyone to
contribute so that we may
all learn from each others
perspectives.
<Serpente> <*>We understand that
there will be a wide range of
depth of understanding and it
is our hope that both experience
d and less experienced individua
ls will gain something from our
discussion
<Serpente> and feel welcome to
contribute.
<Serpente> <*>Since this chapter
is rather short I have loaded
it in its entirety into the
quoting program. If you would
ratherYou can request to be
served paragraphs by messaging
me with a message
<Serpente> in the format pN where
N is the paragraph number.
These introductory remarks are
paragraphs p0 through p10.
<Serpente> <*>We will begin in a
couple of minutes with the
first paragraph.
<Serpente> <*>CHAPTER I
<Serpente> <*>THE PRINCIPLES OF
RITUAL
<Serpente> <*>There is a single
main definition of the object
of all magical Ritual. It is
the uniting of the Microcosm
with the Macrocosm. The Supreme
and Complete Ritual is therefore
the Invocation
<Serpente> of the Holy Guardian
Angel; or, in the language of
Mysticism, Union with God.
<kendoggie> what book
<Serpente> its magick in theory
and practice
<abrasax> Therefore, Macrocosm is
HGA, right?
<kendoggie> kewl
<kendoggie> a discussion group
<kendoggie> love it
<Aleister> if i understand it, the
HGA can be either microcosm or
macrocosm depending on if one
is invoking or evoking
<Tabytha> But the HGA materializes
to each person differently....fr
om one person to the next
<abrasax> Also it is attributed to
the degree of 5=6 or microcosm=m
acrocosm
<Serpente> From what tabytha said
can we then say that the macrocos
m is unique for each one of us?
<abrasax> I don't think so
<Tabytha> Not everyone has "Set"
for a HGA
<abrasax> since we are the exact
image of Macrocosm, and since
we all differ...
<Aleister> well, since the macrocos
m and microcosm are both mirrors
<Aleister> since each of us is
different the macrocosm would
reflect each differently
<abrasax> true
<Aleister> it would seem that the
question of whether the macrocos
m IS different is in principle
not answerable
<Serpente> maybe our HGA is
the reflection of ourselves
coming back at us
<Exscrps> Aleister, is this
what you're saying: HGA is
Microcosm if Invoking.
HGA is Macrocosm if Evoking.
<kendoggie> makes sense
<Aleister> no ex, the other
way around
<abrasax> hmm, interesting
point serp
<Aleister> yes serp
<Aleister> imho
<sekretz> 93 all
<Serpente> 93 sekretz
<abrasax> 93 sekretz
<Tabytha> We only gain knowleg
e and coversation, once we
bring together all levels
of conseness, right?
<abrasax> evocation of HGA
could fall under 6=5
degree then
<Tabytha> Cr
<Tabytha> Crap.....<sp>
<Serpente> sekretz the questio
n is, how can our hga be
unique if the process is
union with the macrocosm
<Exscrps> Aleister, thanks.
I need to think about that
one! I have reasons for
the other way around which
we could probably explore
in another discussion.
Thanks for the concept.
<abrasax> perhaps only our
perception of HGA is unique
<Serpente> lets continue
<Serpente> <*>All other
magical Rituals are particu
lar cases of this general
principle, and the only
excuse for doing them is
that it sometimes occurs
that one particular portion
of the microcosm is
<Serpente> so weak that its
imperfection of impurity
would vitiate the Macrocosm
of which it is the image,
Eidolon, or Reflexion. For
example, God is above sex;
and therefore neither man
nor woman as such can be
<Serpente> said fully to
understand, much less to
represent, God. It is
therefore incumbent on the
male magician to cultivate
those female virtues in
which he is deficient, and
this task he must of
course accomplish
<Serpente> without in any way
impairing his virility. It
will then be lawful for a
magician to invoke Isis,
and identify himself with
her; if he fail to do
this, his apprehension of
the Universe when he
attains
<Serpente> Samadhi will lack
the conception of maternity
. The result will be a
metaphysical and --- by
corollary --- ethical
limitation in the Religion
which he founds. Judaism
and Islam are striking
example of
<Serpente> this failure.
<Serpente> whoa that was a
bit long :)
<sekretz> The same way that
each prophets vision of
god is different, I would
suppose: We each as individ
uals reflect on even a
universal experience in a
way that reflects ourselves
in the outcome.
<abrasax> now, why are all
other rituals cases of
this one
<abrasax> does that mean that
all gods that we invoke
are just different faces
of HGA
<Aleister> 'truth' gets
rather strained and flavore
d by the time it passes
though our neural, cultural
, and personal filters
<Serpente> I would say yes of
course
<Aleister> or of the self
<Serpente> every smaller
thing is part of the larger
macrocosm
<Tabytha> It goes back to
Kabbala, atleast Jewish,
the sepheroth are parts or
aspects to God
<Tabytha> Its all one
<Tabytha> Its easier to back
it down into smaller
pieces
<Tabytha> oops
<Tabytha> break
<Serpente> one but with many
features
<abrasax> what Crowley is
saying here also is that
we are just theoretically
exact image of macrocosm
<Serpente> aspects
<abrasax> it's our work to
balance ourselves, to
reflect the macrocosm, and
then unite with it
<Serpente> but also that we
likey fail to represent
each aspect in balance
<abrasax> this work of balanci
ng brings us to next
segment
<Serpente> yep
<Serpente> <*>To take
another example, the
ascetic life which devotion
to magick so often involve
s argues a poverty of
nature, a narrowness, a
lack of generosity. Nature
is infinitely prodigal ---
not
<Serpente> one in a million
seeds ever comes to fruitio
n. Whoso fails to recognise
this, let him invoke
Jupiter.
<abrasax> 93 LAW
<abrasax> serp, you can add
one more segment, I think
<LAW> 93 Everybody.
<Serpente> ok
<Serpente> 93 LAW
<Serpente> <*>The danger of
ceremonial magick --- the
sublest and deepest danger
--- is this: that the
magician will naturally
tend to invoke that partial
being which most strongly
appeals to him, so
<Serpente> that his natural
excess in that direction
will be still further
exaggerated. Let him,
before beginning his Work,
endeavour to map out his
own being, and arrange his
invocations in such a way
as to redress
<Serpente> the balance.
<Aine> 93 law
<LAW> Good to see you again
Abrasax & Aine.
<abrasax> however, wouldn't
the doing of your true
will emphisize one part of
your being
<Serpente> This seems to ask
us to know ourself fairly
well before we begin
<abrasax> well, they say that
words Nosce Te Ipsum are
on the doors of the portal
of the Temple
<Serpente> what does that
mean abrasax
<Exscrps> Know Thyself! A
natal chart is a good
indicator of any lack of a
particular element in
one's makeup. I'm reminded
of a Brother who, discover
ing that he had a lack of
Fire in his birth chart,
joined the Polar Bears
Club!
<Aleister> there is a referenc
e there for the mapping
proceedure
<abrasax> however, that can
take years
<abrasax> hehe
<Aleister> libers 913 and cxi
are given as reference
there
<abrasax> I think that even Tree
of Life can be very useful
<Exscrps> I must take my leave
now. I shall rejoin you all
later. 93 93/93
<Tabytha> re Math
<Aleister> and what DOES 'Nosce Te
Ipsum' mean?
<Mathetes> re 93s
<abrasax> try to figure out which
sephiroth are weak, and which
are too strong
<abrasax> otherwise, your magick
will be qlipphotic
<Serpente> abrasax, good point.
Perhaps that is one of the
primary functions of having a
map like the tree of life to
point out general areas that a
balanced being just might have
<abrasax> I think that College of
Thelema deals seriously with
these issues
<abrasax> 93 ex
<Mathetes> and just taking the
middle path?
<abrasax> Know Thyself
<Serpente> that leads right to the
next statement in the text
<Serpente> <*>This, of course,
should have been done in a
preliminary fashion during the
preparation of the weapons and
furniture of the Temple.
<abrasax> we are the Tree of Life
of course, that's what Pentagram
ritual teaches us
<LAW> There are many system and
approaches to begin the process
of "Knowing Thyself", the Tree,
and other Qabalistic study,
Enochian we have used effectivle
y, and several of the methods
of current day "undoing and
redoing" seem also to be
effective as well as Shamanistic
work, just to mention a few.
<Serpente> so by the preparation
of the elemental weapons we
become introduced to the map and
its primary aspects and gain a
general survey of the territory
<abrasax> I don't think that we
should take Crowley literary
<abrasax> he doesn't really mean
the furnishing of the physical
Temple
<abrasax> but rather as a symbol
of our magickal universe
*** lasre (Geoff@d6m14.e-tex.com)
has left #thelema
<LAW> Hummm, I tend to think he
did, at least in this reference.
<abrasax> could you elaborate?
<Aleister> well, since the
one symbolizes the other,
it seems a moot point
<LAW> Well the process of
making your magical tools
and puting the Temple
furniture together is a
self initiation unto
itself.
<abrasax> agreed Al
<Serpente> I would think that
the actually conscruction
and consecration process
would be an important part
of gaining that first
familiarity with the territo
ry
<LAW> Construction of the
implements "forces" somewha
t the actual understtanding
of same.
<abrasax> but I think that it
should come after getting
to know yourself better
<abrasax> you don't rush to
make your weapons right
away
<LAW> I agree Serpente, at
least that has been my
personal experience.
<LAW> Agreed also Abrasax,
it's just part of the
process taken at the
magicians own pace.
<Serpente> which is probably
why most training or Outer
orders are arranged in an
elemental progression
<abrasax> good point
<abrasax> that's the formula
of Pentagram actually
<abrasax> balancing the four
elements and then invoking
the Spirit
<Serpente> but other systems
could be used such as
chakras or any other model
that supposed to be a
complete image oof the
macrocosm
<abrasax> compare grades in
A.'.A.'.
<abrasax> so could we look at
the Man of Earth triad as
performing the similar
function
<abrasax> where the final
rising of Kundalini is
union with HGA
<abrasax> btw, one remark,
one found it very easy to
study chapter 8 along with
this one
<abrasax> I found it, not one
<Serpente> ok lets keep going
<Serpente> <*>To consider in
a more particular manner
this question of the
Nature of Ritual, we may
suppose that he finds
himself lacking in that
perception of the value of
Life and Death, alike of
<Serpente> individuals and of
races, which is characteris
tic of Nature. He has
perhaps a tendency to
perceive the "first noble
truth" uttered by Buddha,
that Everything is sorrow.
Nature, it seems, is a
tragedy.
<Serpente> He has perhaps
even experienced the great
trance called Sorrow. He
should then consider
whether there is not some
Deity who expresses this
Cycle, and yet whose
nature is joy. He will
find what he requires
<Serpente> in Dionysus.
<Ingeborg> hello all!
<abrasax> 93 inge
* Ingeborg waves to the
channel
<Serpente> 93 Inge, feel free
to join us we have a discuss
ion group in progress
<Aine> 93 inge
<Ingeborg> I don't know what
to say, seeing as I'm from
a very different magical
tradition.
* Ingeborg shrugs
<Ingeborg> guess I should
just lurk and take mental
notes...
<Serpente> hmm this is interes
ting for AC to recommend an
antidote to buddhism that
is pretty far removed from
the buddhist reaction
<abrasax> I think that he's
deriving this from his
personal experience
<Aleister> it was not an
antidote to buddhism per se
<Aleister> it was an antidote
to adherence to a partial
and limiting truth
<abrasax> he's not saying
that there is anything
wrong with buddhism
<LAW> Also more of a traditina
l Crowley "leg pull" as to
drownding one's sorrow in
a bottle of good booze.
* Ingeborg chuckles
<kendoggie> lol
<Aleister> thank you law, i
missed that obvious joke
<abrasax> hehe
<LAW> A good dicotomy too
Laughing Budda and Sorrow.
<Serpente> one of the fun
things about reading crowley
, he had a great sense of
humor
<LAW> Also deeper in that
Sorrow is Binah and Nature
being a joke in itself
Aliester really turned on
here I think, many layers
of thought actually.
<tannhaus> hello
<abrasax> 93 tann
<tannhaus> 93
<Ingeborg> hello Tann!
<LAW> Hints and inuendo to
the max.
<abrasax> serp, you can give
us next segment
<Serpente> ok
<Serpente> <*>There are
three main methods of
invoking any Deity.
<Serpente> <*>The First
Method consists of devotion
to that Deity, and, being
mainly mystical in characte
r, need not be dealt with
in this place, especially
as a perfect instruction
exists in Liber
<Serpente> 175 ("See" Appendix).
<abrasax> Bahkta-Yoga, basical
ly
<Aleister> yep
<abrasax> Also we can look at
it as using Love formula(Lo
ve is the law...) and
second method as using
Will formual (Do what...)
<abrasax> 93 ringo
<Ringo_X> Hey , 93
<Serpente> I would think this
would be confusing to
someone in thier early
career as a magician
<abrasax> what would be
confusing
* Aine was confused a long
time ago :)
<Serpente> well I would
expect it would be dramatic
and carrying away
<abrasax> you mean this method
<Serpente> total identificatio
n with a deity through
worship and devotion
<Serpente> yeah
<Serpente> just an aside
really
<Aleister> evokation would seem
to involve 'will' in a more
active sense than invokation
does
<LAW> Why so?
<Serpente> invocation would
involve a kind of surrender
<abrasax> they both involve
will, since they are attribute
to the formula of wand
<abrasax> this method would fall
under formula of Cup then,
right?
<LAW> Ah, yes see your point now.
<Serpente> oh well my point was
really just to reiterate the
trueism that the magician has
to be careful not to mistake
the first resting place as the
destination :)
<abrasax> 93 white
<Whiteshdw> MM
<Brmhilda> hiya inge
<Ingeborg> hiya!
<abrasax> any more comments on
this first method?
<Ingeborg> Ummm...what do I do
here besides lurk and read?
<Serpente> lets continue to the
second method
<Serpente> lurking is fine
Ingeborg :)
<Serpente> <*>The Second method
is the straight forward
ceremonial invocation. It is
the method which was usually
employed in the Middle Ages.
Its advantage is its directnes
s, its disadvantage its
crudity.
<Serpente> The "Goetia" gives
clear instruction in this
method, and so do many other
rituals, white and black. We
shall presently devote some
space to a clear exposition
of this Art.
<LAW> I think there is some
beginning value for some
people in the devotional
method of becoming the Diety
through invocation then
evocation, might not be of
value to everyone but for
some it might be the key. I'd
guess this is why it's
mentioned here then given to
a complete other study for
those interested in mystical
means to the end.
<abrasax> however, these two
methods can be easily combined
<Serpente> thank you LAW good
point
<Serpente> combined abrasax? can
you explain
<Aleister> perhaps my understandi
ng is poor
<Aleister> i seem to have some
problem with the idea of
evokation
<abrasax> well, I mean adding
some emotions and devotions
when using second method
<Aleister> seeking union with a
god works fine for me
<abrasax> combining Love with
Will
* Ingeborg nods ...same here,
Al...
<Aleister> constraining one and
bossing it around seems out
of accord with my nature
<abrasax> chapter 15 talks about
that combination
<Ingeborg> Ummm, pardon me if
this sounds clueless...
<Aleister> are these really in
some sense the same thing?
<Aleister> evokation seems
unnecessarily dualistic to me
<Whiteshdw> oops, gotta go,
Merry Part
<abrasax> these methods are
actually in a sense same, as
Crowley points out latter
<Ingeborg> but what (no crowley-e
se please, just plain English)
do you mean by capital-L
Love?
<Serpente> Ingeborg, I would say
the simplest sense, Love=Union
<Ingeborg> I come from a traditio
n that doesn't use that
terminology.
<Ingeborg> Ohhhhh.
<abrasax> I actually find it
hard to explain using words,
but perhaps Divine Love
<abrasax> I am using it here in
connection with Liber AL
* Ingeborg nods
<Serpente> aleister perhaps
there are aspects of your
selve you would rather not
increase by furthuring your
identification with them, but
rather that you would like a
greater degree of control over
<LAW> I think both methods
involve similar things it's
more or less the understanding
and focus of the magician
that makes the difference
here. After all the means by
which we assume or associate
being the god form are in
fact just a passive method of
subtle invocation and evocatio
n. Direct intent to invoke
and evoke is what I think the
reference to cruder methods
are meant to imply.
<LAW> Kind of the difference
between Mystical and Occult
approaches to me.
<abrasax> evocation is also
connected with digging out
complexes in psychoanalysis
* Ingeborg keeps lurking...
<Serpente> interesting that
crowley uses the terms 'black'
and 'white' here
<Aleister> well, i admit to
being reluctant to call
anything i would feel obligate
d to restrain
<Mistletoe> brb
<Aleister> i dont want to call
anything i would be uncomforta
ble having in my life for a
long time
<abrasax> I wonder why
<abrasax> maybe black magick is
the one not pointed toward HGA
<Aleister> it seems dangerous to
me
<Serpente> on the other hand
Aleister any macrocosm is
going to have a lot of stuff
in it not all of which is
savory
<abrasax> that's how he defines
it somewhere else
<LAW> Black = Female White =
Male in much of the writtings,
so maybe again an indication
of Combining same to create
the desired child. Just a
thought.
<abrasax> I'm pretty sure that
black rituals are those for
material things, powers, not
toward HGA
<Serpente> another good point
LAW, you always have to
remember to look for layers of
symbolism with crowley
<Ringo_X> I've always understood
it as everything 'lawful'...ma
terial gain whatever as long
as it fits somehow into the
grand scheme of things ie. HGA
<LAW> I'd guess that Crowley was
not too scared of using the
Black Magick terminology for
absolute example, for more
often then not he was writing
to an assumed educated
audience I think.
<Ringo_X> alot of scope offered
in this defninition
<abrasax> Crowley says: "any
will but that to give up the
self to the Beloved is Black
Magick"
* Ingeborg sits idly in the
cybercorner, fiddling with the
Thor's hammer around her neck
*hmm hmm hmm*
<Serpente> also he is refering
to instruction or method not
to motive in this context
<Serpente> so that is worth
bearing in mind I think
<abrasax> true
<Ringo_X> mmh, nod
<LAW> Abrasax, I'd think that at
the time of this writing
Crowley was not indicating
anything to do with polarized
warnings against Black Magick
as associated with Material
gain.
<Aleister> and since he was
referring in that passage to
literature not his own i
would think he was accepting
the previous given understandi
ng of the meaning there
<LAW> See the potential in that
comment as a hint, if Black
is Female?
<PAniteowl> MM all
<abrasax> no law
<abrasax> 93 pa
<Serpente> ok lets go on
<Serpente> <*>In the case of
Bacchus, however, we may
roughly outline the procedure.
We find that the symbolism
of Tiphareth expresses the
nature of Bacchus. It is then
necessary to construct a
Ritual
<Serpente> of Tiphareth. Let us
open the Book 777; we shall
find in line 6 of each column
the various parts of our
required apparatus. Having
ordered everything duly, we
shall exalt the mind by
repeated prayers
<Aleister> i think in this
context, demonic workings
might be the referent
<Serpente> or conjurations to
the highest conception of the
God, until, in one sense or
another of the word, He
appears to us and floods our
consciousness with the light
of His divinity.
<Serpente> oops sorry Aleister
<abrasax> 93 green
<Aleister> go right ahead
* GreenMan_ waves to everyone
<LAW> From Crowley's point of
reference.
<Ringo_X> right to part of the
method
<Mistletoe> back
<abrasax> this example seems
fairly straightforward
<Serpente> yep
<Aine> hihi green
<Ringo_X> maybe junping the gun
here, but it seems to me that
in the last para he realtes
each of these methods to IAO
formula?
<Serpente> we could I suppose go
into what is 777, though I
suspect everyone is familiar
with that book
<Ringo_X> nod
<abrasax> good point ringo
<abrasax> I=isis would definitely
go under Devotion
<abrasax> but how do other ones
fit
<LAW> I agree Ringo, good point
too.
<Feydakin> 93
<Aine> 93 fey
<Feydakin> What's doing?
<abrasax> 93 fey
<Aleister> the self may be
'anhilated' in invokation,
would that fit "A."?
<abrasax> serp, how about next
part
<Serpente> ok lets see the next
one
<Serpente> <*>The Third Method
is the Dramatic, perhaps the
most attractive of all;
certainly it is so to the
artist's temperament, for it
appeals to his imagination
through his aesthetic sense.
<Ringo_X> I can't see clearly
how each of the methods
outlined relates to IAO
<Tabytha> I gotta go guys........
.93s will there be another
diss. next week?
<Ringo_X> al I was thinking
along those lines
<Aleister> yes taby chap 2
<Tabytha> Thanks
<Tabytha> I'll be here
* Tabytha waves
<Serpente> <*>Its disadvantage
lies principally in the
difficulty of its performance
by a single person. But it
has the sanction of the
highest antiquity, and is
probably the most useful for
the foundation
<Serpente> of a religion. It is
the method of Catholic
Christianity, and consists in
the dramatization of the
legend of the God. The
Bacchae of Euripides is a
magnificent example of such a
Ritual; so also, through
<Serpente> in a less degree, is
the Mass. We may also mention
many of the degrees in
Freemasonry, particularly the
third. The 5 Degree = 6Square
Ritual published in No. III
of the Equinox is another
example.
<Ringo_X> the chapter seems to
move form general outline of
drmatic method to more
specific nature of Bacchus,
it seems divergent to me
<Serpente> trying to give
examples I think
<Ringo_X> yes, well the bacchus
Christ thing is prob the most
well known and wide spread
<abrasax> re all
<abrasax> are we still on the
second method
<Ringo_X> 3 rd
<LAW> I think the drawn point to
IAO as the basis here is
because of the root formula
being in production of a 3rd
thing. Reguarless of the
method the formula is always
aimed at that production, so
IAO formula is the foundation.
<Serpente> nope we just moved to
the dramatic
<abrasax> thanx
<LAW> The Mass with it's I and O
components, and the consumptio
n and combining of them to
produce the 3rd thing, i.e.
the child is another reference
.
<Ringo_X> nod
<Serpente> I would think that
any dramatic ritual would have
to include elements of invocati
on
<Ringo_X> cf with the rose and
cross discussed
<abrasax> certainly
<abrasax> btw, why does Crowley
sort of go off topic here
<abrasax> talking about the
theory of death and so on
<Aleister> it seems to me that
drama involves both invokation
and evokation
<LAW> With invocation of a
Diety, then assumption of
that Diety's "being" we end
up with a 3rd thing also,
that being the combination of
the Diety and the Magician to
produce the child which is
neither the Diety or the
Magician but both combined
into a 3rd thing.
<Aleister> invokation in that
one identifies with the role
played
<Aleister> evokation in that
others are also calling that
being into you by treating
you as that being
<Ringo_X> it seems to me that
the discussion of rose and
cross and then IAO all ties
in with the fundemental
process...as LAW mentioned
<LAW> Yep, Actor and Script,
combined equal 3rd thing,
that which is neither but
both.
<Ringo_X> what did Burroughs and
Gysin call that?
<abrasax> so death would be the
death of old self that gave
space to the invoked god
<LAW> IAO, is I think the main
point being driven home.
<Ringo_X> when two ppl collaborat
e, a third prescense
<gumby23> 93!
<Serpente> 93 gumby
<abrasax> 93 gumby
<Serpente> ok let me throw out
somemore text
<gumby23> did i miss the discussi
on?
<LAW> Abrasax, yes death here
meaning conjunction.
<Serpente> nope were still going
gumby
<Serpente> <*>In the case of
Bacchus, one commemorates
firstly his birth of a mortal
mother who has yielded her
treasure-house to the Father
of All, of the jealousy and
rage excited by this incarnati
on,
<abrasax> 2 hours already
<Serpente> and of the heavenly
protection afforded to the
infant.
<gumby23> great
<Serpente> <*>Next should be
commemorated the journeying
westward upon an ass. Now
comes the great scene of the
drama: the gentle, exquisite
youth with his following
(chiefly composed of women)
seems
<Serpente> to threaten the
established order of things,
and that Established Order
takes steps to put an end to
the upstart. We find Dionysus
confronting the angry King,
not with defiance, but with
meekness; yet
<Serpente> with a subtle confiden
ce, an underlying laughter.
His forehead is wreathed with
vine tendrils. He is an
effeminate figure with those
broad leaves clustered upon
his brow? But those leaves
hide horns.
<Serpente> King Pentheus,
representative of respectabili
ty, is destroyed by his
pride. He goes out into the
mountains to attack the women
who have followed Bacchus,
the youth whom he has mocked,
scourged, and put
<Serpente> in chains, yet who
has only smiled; and by those
women, in their divine
madness, he is torn to pieces.
<abrasax> in a sense this is
Crowley bringing Liber AL
<abrasax> destroying the old
world
<abrasax> word that is
<abrasax> btw, did anyone try to
make spring equinox ritual
along these lines
<DeadFish> oh LOVELY
<Feydakin> fishie shut up and
learn ;>
<Serpente> well AC does seem on
a tangent doesnt he
<DeadFish> Fey: it's probably
overrated
<LAW> And at the same time
defining the method, in very
esoteric terms, this describes
the Great Rite to some
degree, albiet in subtle
terms of poeticism.
<Feydakin> fish Definately!
<abrasax> agreed law
<LAW> Don't think it's a tangent.
* DeadFish loves the sound of
someone having an aneurism
* DeadFish works tech support,
gets to hear it on a regular
basis
* Aine always thought that
sounded like a nice muffeled
*pop*
<LAW> Just reaffermation of IAO
in sexual terms for physical
ritual.
* Serpente nods
<Ringo_X> yep law
<abrasax> Cross and Rose that
he's talking about later as
well
<kendoggie> whats a good talisman
to win at gambline
<LAW> Yes.
<kendoggie> gambling
<Serpente> as well as introducing
his own work in mythic terms
<Aine> 93 strych!
<strych9> Yep.
<abrasax> ken, that's kinda off
topic
<strych9> 93eeeeeeeeeeeeee
<LAW> "Know the dealer?" <G>
joined #thelema
<Serpente> ok lets see some more
<Aleister> i think it is called
a casino licence
<Serpente> <*>It has already
seemed impertinent to say so
much when Walter Pater has
told the story with such
sympathy and insight. We will
not further transgress by
dwelling upon the identity of
this
<Serpente> legend with the
course of Nature, its madness,
its prodigality, its intoxica
tion, its joy, and above all
its sublime persistence
through the cycles of Life
and Death. The pagan reader
must labour to understand
<Serpente> this in Pater's
"Greek Studies", and the
Christian reader will recognis
e it, incident for incident,
in the story of Christ. This
legend is but the dramatizatio
n of Spring.
<gumby23> sup badmout:P
<abrasax> I think that you can
add some more, unless someone
has a comment to make
<LAW> Ha Ha Ha! Great lines, he
get's about 20 of his advasari
es in about 4 sentences.
<DeadFish> Oh! i'm sorry, i
forgot it was lesson time
<kendoggie> sorry
<Serpente> <*>The magician who
wishes to invoke Bacchus by
this method must therefore
arrange a ceremony in which
he takes the part of Bacchus,
undergoes all His trials, and
emerges triumphant from
<Serpente> beyond death. He
must, however, be warned
against mistaking the symbolis
m. In this case, for example,
the doctrine of individual
immortality has been dragged
in, to the destruction of
truth. It is not
<Serpente> that utterly worthless
part of man, his individual
consciousness as John Smith,
which defies death --- that
consciousness which dies and
is reborn in every thought.
That which persists (if
anything persist)
<Serpente> is his real John
Smithiness, a quality of
which he was probably never
conscious in his life.
<abrasax> unfortunately, I must
leave now, 93 93/93 all
<Serpente> ok well lets keep
going
<Serpente> <*>The reincarnation
of the Khu or magical Self is
another matter entirely, too
abstruse to discuss in this
elementary manual.
<Serpente> <*>Even that does
not persist unchanged. It is
always growing. The Cross is
a barren stick, and the
petals of the Rose fall and
decay; but in the union of
the Cross and the Rose is a
constant
<Serpente> succession of new
lives.
<Serpente> <*>Without this
union, and without this death
of the individual, the cycle
would be broken.
<Serpente> we rather covered all
of this I think
<Serpente> ok I'll keep flooding
<Serpente> <*>A chapter will be
consecrated to removing the
practical difficulties of
this method of Invocation. It
will doubtless have been
noted by the acumen of the
reader that in the great
essentials
<Serpente> these three methods
are one. In each case the
magician identifies himself
with the Deity invoked. To
"invoke" is to "call in",
just as to "evoke" is to
"call forth". This is the
essential difference between
<Serpente> the two branches of
Magick. In invocation, the
macrocosm floods the conscious
ness. In evocation, the
magician, having become the
macrocosm, creates a microcosm
. You "in"voke a God into the
Circle. You
<Serpente> "e"voke a Spirit into
the Triangle. In the first
method identity with the God
is attained by love and by
surrender, by giving up or
suppressing all irrelevant
(and illusionary) parts of
yourself. It is
<Serpente> the weeding of a
garden.
<Serpente> <*>In the second
method identity is attained
by paying special attention
to the desired part of
yourself: positive, as the
first method is negative. It
is the potting-out and
watering of
<Serpente> a particular flower
in the garden, and the
exposure of it to the sun.
<LAW> Very important instruction
and hints here too I think.
<Aleister> as to the called
being aspects of the self law?
<Ringo_X> mmm, yeah
* Ringo_X ponders
<LAW> Well, the specific referenc
e to the difference between
invocation and evocation.
<Ringo_X> the weeding of the
garden v. the tending of a
paticualr flower
<LAW> Invocation is call in,
into self, or into circle,
which ever is best understood.
<LAW> Evocation is projection
back out of that invoked in.
<LAW> Since the invoked is now a
combined form, it is placed
in the Triangle of Art,
rather then the circle.
<LAW> This is the general method
of invocation and evocation
as I understand it.
<Ringo_X> The realtionship
between the magician and the
macro / micro is interesting
in this instance
<Ringo_X> All the these reference
s to garden etc are very
reminicent of Waite Atu 1
<Serpente> <*>In the third,
identity is attained by
sympathy. It is very difficult
for the ordinary man to lose
himself completely in the
subject of a play or of a
novel; but for those who can
do so,
<Serpente> this method is
unquestionably the best.
<LAW> Yes for sure Ringo, Macro
is invoked, "and consumed or
conjuncted" with micro to
produce new Macro/Micro.
<Ringo_X> like the magician in
some instances my be seen as
the microcosm to the to HGA's
macro
<Ringo_X> and the magician the
macro to the the thing evoked
<LAW> I think the Garden referenc
es here refer to the methods
main purpose, That of eventual
ly Tending your own garden of
asprents, the responsibility
of the 8-3 degree.
<LAW> Yes, in conjunction both
the Macro and Micro "transform
into something else, again
the IAO formula.
<Ringo_X> Thats a point, but I'm
keen to find the realtions
between each of the chapters
and the major arcana
<Aleister> ringo there is a
liber that gives those
<Ringo_X> the thrid mind....
<Aleister> the chapter headings
can also tell you some of them
<Ringo_X> al...that discusses
the realtions?
<Aleister> yes
<Ringo_X> I asumed it was
straighforward ch 0 = fool,
1= magus...etc
<Ringo_X> 8=3 is oath of the
magus yeah?
<LAW> I think you'll be directed
to the Lovers for the conjunct
ion, with the Fool as the
product, and the Magician and
or Devil and High Priestess
for the players, with Art
being the method.
<Aleister> no, chapter 0 is the
magickal theory of the
universe, this clearly must
refer to atu XXI
<abrasax> re
<Serpente> re abrasax
<abrasax> no, chapter 0 is Atu 0
<Aleister> though he may be
telling us by this that in
some sense the fool=the
universe?
<abrasax> this chapter is Atu 1
<Aleister> the correspondences
are not straightforward
<Ringo_X> I've always understood
a direct realtionship between
them
<LAW> Atu 1 and these are the
methods employed.
<abrasax> right
<LAW> The card shows many of the
items discussed.
<Aleister> why would 'magickal
theory of the universe' refer
to anything directly other
than 'the universe', pray
tell?
<Ringo_X> 0 is a representation
of the universe, it's between
the other atu around them
<Serpente> ok well chapter two
is the formula of the elemental
weapons, which sounds more
the Atu I than Atu II the high
priestess..
<QuaZar> anything going on?
<Serpente> 93 quazar, just
wrapping up a discussion group
* kendoggie thinks making such
weapons is hard, not able to
make them my self
<Aleister> liber DCCCLXVIII
liber Viarum Viae, a graphical
account of magickal powers
classified under the tarot
trumps
<Ringo_X> I wonder what Tarot
designs Ac was using round
the time of writing
<Ringo_X> gotcha al
<gumby23> ken i dont think it
matters if the weapons are
ugly and crude, its the act
of making em thats important]
<Aleister> digging iron ore is a
bitch
<Aleister> as is smelting it
<gumby23> tin foil over cardboard
:)
<Serpente> hehe
<Serpente> well I'm going to
quote out some more, its
getting late
<abrasax> are we almost done
with the chapter
<Serpente> <*>Observe: each
element in this cycle is of
equal value. It is wrong to
say triumphantly "Mors janua
vitae", unless you add, with
equal triumph, "Vita janua
mortis".
<gumby23> translated?
<Serpente> death is the gate of
life and life is the gate of
death
<kendoggie> <<==a perfectionist
and i see a beautiful wand in
a book, i have ot have it,
and get frustrated if it
doesn't turn out that way end
of interuption :-)
<Mathetes> sounds like orgasm to
me
<abrasax> so is this discussion
still going on or what
<Serpente> lol!
<Serpente> well that probably
depends on who you asked :)
<Serpente> I think I have one
more paragraph to spew
<abrasax> cool
<Serpente> <*>To one who
understands this chain of the
Aeons from the point of view
alike of the sorrowing Isis
and of the triumphant Osiris,
not forgetting their link in
the destroyer Apophis, there
<Serpente> remains no secret
veiled in Nature. He cries
that name of God which
throughout History has been
echoed by one religion to
another, the infinite swelling
paean I.A.O.!
<abrasax> hmm, this Aeons
<abrasax> he didn't mention them
anywhere else in this chapter
<Mathetes> just a little off
topic but still there...does
anyone know what the chain is?
<Serpente> he just told ya
<LAW> I think in this case it's
just another word for progress
ion.
<LAW> The sequence from Pisces
to Aquarius, to Capricorn and
so forth.
<Mathetes> err...the full
chain...up to now and beyond..
I remember a reference
somewhere as it was the same
as the officers in the G.D.
however I couldn't find that
info
<LAW> And how each Aeon takes on
an IAO charistic.
<Ringo_X> re
<gumby23> aeon preceding isis?
<abrasax> re ringo
<Serpente> Mathetes in the GD
the Hierus (God form Horus)
assumes the role of Heirophant
at the Equinox
<Serpente> The officers rotate I
mean in other words
<LAW> The only Crowley implied
reference that I know of is
the Isis, Osiris, Apophis,
cycle.
<Ringo_X> is Aphosis related
here to Horus....this is just
a shot in the dark but seems
to unite them in some sense
<LAW> Yes, Apophis is the Child
in that combo.
<abrasax> I think so
<Serpente> the next officer down
from Hierus (horus) is Hegemon
(MAAT)
<abrasax> so this chapter should
be closely studied with IAO
formula
<LAW> Many would think the next
cycle is one of Twins,
crowned and conquering. <G>
So Maat and Horus would be a
good bet, I think.
<Ringo_X> prop be valuable
studfying it alos in light of
VIAOV analysis
<abrasax> so this kinda wraps
things up
<LAW> Yet another good example
of the evidence of Twins I
think.
<Serpente> yeaap
<kendoggie> very interesting
learned alot
<Serpente> heres the bookend
<Serpente> <*>That concludes
our discussion tonight. Thank
you for attending. Our next
discussion on Chapter III -
The Formulae of the Elemental
Weapons will be announced on
the Undernet Thelema home
<Serpente> page at:
<Serpente> <*>http://www.wintern
et.com/~robin/thelema.html
<Serpente> <*>We hope you have
found this an interesting
experience and thank you for
your contributions.
<Serpente> oops thats chapter II
<Serpente> <*>Do what thou wilt
shall be the whole of the
Law. Love is the law, love
under will.