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Session Start: Sun Apr 13 21:17:15 1997
<Serpente> <*> Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the
law, love under will.
<Serpente> <*> On behalf of the users of Undernet Channel #Thelema, allow me
to extend a hearty welcome to all.
<Serpente> <*> The topic for tonights discussion is Chapter II of Magick in
Theory and Practice, The Formulae of the Elemental Weapons.
<el8one> ok.
<el8one> im here
* Sattva is most assuredly present
<el8one> whens the discussion starting?
<Serpente> greetings el8one
<Serpente> its starting now :)
<Serpente> I have a program that pastes the text into channel as you will see
<Serpente> <*> You may find the text at http://www.winternet.com/~robin/magick
02.html we recommend that you bring the text up on your web browser now
before we begin so that you may refer to it.
<Serpente> <*> IRC is a difficult medium to hold discussions of a complex
nature so we would like to ask that everyone remain focused on the topic at
hand to help us avoid distractions.
<Serpente> <*> The format of the discussion is unmoderated. Rather than
lecture, our hope is to encourage everyone to contribute so that we may all
learn from each others perspectives and welcome all
<Serpente> contributions.
<Serpente> <*> If you would like more information on a topic that comes up, bring
it up after the discussion and we will try to help you find further resources if
possible.
<Serpente> <*> Since this chapter is rather short I have loaded it in its entirety
into the quoting program. You can request to be served paragraphs by messaging
me with a message in the format pN where
<Serpente> N is the paragraph number. These introductory remarks are paragraphs p0
through p8. Message me if you would like more information on the quote program.
<el8one> :)
<Serpente> In other words if you want the program will quote back to you in messages
<Serpente> <*> We will begin in a couple of minutes with the first paragraph.
<Serpente> <*> CHAPTER II
<Serpente> <*> THE FORMULAE OF THE ELEMENTAL WEAPONS.
<Serpente> <*> Before discussing magical formulae in detail, one may observe that
most rituals are composite, and contain many formulae which must be harmonized
into one.
<Serpente> This seems fairly obvious, but what is the one formula that the many
most be harmonized into?
* Sattva guesses I.A.O.
<Serpente> Interesting, that was pretty much the point of the last chapter actually.
<Serpente> <*> The first formula is that of the Wand. In the sphere of the
principle which the magician wishes to invoke, he rises from point to point in a
perpendicular line, and then descends; or else,
<Serpente> beginning at the top, he comes directly down, "invoking" first the god
of that sphere by "devout supplication" that He may deign to send the
appropriate Archangel.
<Inconnu> YHVH?
* Sattva notes that he isn't familiar with Thelemic magic, but has noticed that his
rituals always end up combining rather complex formulas, which are symbolized by
various implements or words, etc.
<Serpente> I'm pretty much of the feeling that there isnt really a "Thelemic
Magick" per se, in these essays, but an overall Theory of magick
<Sattva> we'll see!
<Serpente> I'd be interested in hearing where you think the divergence occurs :)
<Sattva> I can point out an instance of the wand formula...
<Serpente> are we there yet or should we continue
<Sattva> no, not there yet
<Serpente> ok
<Serpente> So what the heck is he talking about here?
<Sattva> The Kaballistic Prayer, given by Levi is an interesting example of
ascension of the levels. It is incomplete, but the idea behind it is an
invocation of the different intelligences, beginning with the planetary
intelligences, and ascending up the worlds...
<Sattva> sounds to me, that the formula of the wand consists of first stepping out
of the ordinary consciousness, into the macrocosmic consciousness
<Serpente> So the formula is to rise from plane to plane calling the various
intelligences appropriate to that plane
<DeadFish> BEH
<Sattva> and then descending back into manifestation
<DeadFish> Inc: mufon is online
<DeadFish> and CAN is such an utterly disorganized mess at the moment i'm not sure
if there to be worried aobut
<Sattva> serp: if you are referring to the Levi prayer, then yes, that's the idea
<Inconnu> dead: rock and roll..i'll have to visit them
<Serpente> send some aliens in to help us out DeadFish
<Serpente> ok ok
<Serpente> <*> He then "beseeches" the Archangel to send the Angel or Angels of
that sphere to his aid; he "conjures" this Angel or Angels to send the
intelligence in question, and this intelligence
<Serpente> he will "conjure with authority" to compel the obedience of the spirit
and his manifestation. To this spirit he "issues commands".
<ANihilist> Seems to me supplicating the entire spiritual chain of command is
common sense.
<Serpente> so we have a description of the attitude of the magician to these
various planes
<ANihilist> Drawing from the highest world down to Assiah.
<Sattva> yup - the descent
<Aleister> establishment of a link between micro and macro
<Sattva> hardly anything "common" about magic :-)
<ANihilist> True...but certain things have a feel of common sense about them...or
make sense.
<DeadFish> Ooop, sorry, forgot about the class
<Serpente> this again points out the 'middle' position of the magician in the chain
dont you think?
<Serpente> beseeching the higher, but commanding the lower
<Sattva> Interesting demonstration of this is in Genesis. The quote where Abram
("lofty father") has his name changed by God into Abraham ("father of
multitudes"). Also, the wand formula is identical to the raising and lowering
of Kundalini.
<Sattva> and the wand is an old phallic symbol, referring to the sexual force, of
course :-)
<Serpente> So we have the Higher confering a kind of authority to order around the
lower stratus
<DeadFish> ooo... MUFON personals ads..
<Inconnu> and the rationale between summoning and binding the 4 princes of evil
after K&C of the HGA
<Sattva> I think that's true, but I object to the use of the term "common sense"
...
<DeadFish> 'common sense'.. that which will not be proven, and will invite scorn
apon anyone who questions it
<Serpente> Good point Inconnu, it is argued that until that point one doesnt have
the confired authority
<ANihilist> You may disagree, Sattva. I will hold to my perceptions.
<ANihilist> Objections or not.
<Serpente> greeting solar
<Solar-ny> 93 all
<Solar-ny> Sorry I'm late
<Serpente> we were talking about the first couple of paragraphs
<Serpente> the formula of the wand
<Serpente> ok here is some more text
<Serpente> <*> It will be seen that this is a formula rather of evocation than of
invocation, and for the latter the procedure, though apparently the same, should
be conceived of in a different manner,
<Serpente> which brings it under another formula, that of Tetragrammaton. The
essence of the force invoked is one, but the "God" represents the germ or
beginning of the force, the "Archangel" its development; and
<Serpente> so on, until, with the "Spirit", we have the completion and perfection
of that force.
<Serpente> So the formula of the Wand is of evocation rather than invocation?
<Serpente> I suppose this is because of the formula of ascent and descent, where
the magician ultimately assumes the authority of the higher in order to control
the lower reaches.
<abrasax> 93 all
<Serpente> 93 abrasax glad you could make it
<abrasax> so where are we right now
<Serpente> about para three in the book
<Serpente> I think AC may have just gone over our heads
<Serpente> ;)
<Solar-ny> ;)
<abrasax> ok thanx
<Serpente> I'll re send that one, because I think it is important
<Serpente> <*> It will be seen that this is a formula rather of evocation than of
invocation, and for the latter the procedure, though apparently the same, should
be conceived of in a different manner,
<Serpente> which brings it under another formula, that of Tetragrammaton. The
essence of the force invoked is one, but the "God" represents the germ or
beginning of the force, the "Archangel" its development; and
<Serpente> so on, until, with the "Spirit", we have the completion and perfection
of that force.
<Solar-ny> I think it's a dual pupose weapon, and that the operation determines the
formula
<abrasax> that part is little bit confusing
<Aleister> the order of god>archangel>angel>intelligence woud recapitulate the
elemental formula
<ANihilist> I think I agree with Solar.
<Solar-ny> Perhaps the straight line is the key
<Aleister> use of fire to initiate a four element sequence of events
<abrasax> also wand is dual
<Aleister> ending with manifestation on the earh plane
<Solar-ny> exactly
<abrasax> first method actually combines invocation and evocation
<imaGoD> hello...
<Serpente> welcome imaGod
* Serpente smiles
<abrasax> while the second one falls under IHVH as Crowley puts it
<Aleister> well it could be used for either
<Aleister> but is evokation in the example given
<Serpente> THe next chapter is tetragramaton so I imagine we will get more into the
invocational formula there
<Serpente> let continue, we have a lot of ground
<ANihilist> Wouldn't alot of operations draw on this concept, though? Drawing from
Atziluth down to Assiah?
<Serpente> I think that whole process of rising and descending has countless
implications
<abrasax> evocation could also fall under the formula of Cup
<Serpente> yet ac says next:
<Serpente> <*> The formula of the Cup is not so well suited for Evocations, and the
magical Hierarchy is not involved in the same way; for the Cup being passive
rather than active, it is not fitting
<Serpente> for the magician to use it in respect of anything but the Highest. In
practical working it consequently means little but prayer, and that prayer the
"prayer of silence".
<ANihilist> Right...even though AC goes on to say otherwise a little further on.
<Aleister> sink or swim?
<abrasax> but more about that in a bit
<Serpente> I guess the point is that all the beseeching and commanding isnt suited
to the cup
<Serpente> which demands a passive receptivity
<ANihilist> ...because of its passivity.
<HentaiDI> greetings, humans.
<abrasax> specially if you get into Kundalini Yoga
<Serpente> greetings hentai, if you want to catch up you can send me messages in
the form of p0 through our current paragraph p15
<abrasax> I think that note for this part is very important
<Serpente> What is Liber LXXXI?
<HentaiDI> actually, I was wanting to ask some specific questions... when will the
lesson be over?
<Serpente> Hentai cant say for sure, we have a lot to cover if we can get through
it all, I'd say a good hour
<abrasax> it is connected with sexual magick and mediumship
<abrasax> using the Priestess to manifest forces evoked
<Serpente> Do you have the Liber title handy?
<Solar-ny> Liber 81 = Moonchild
<abrasax> Moonchild
* Inconnu notes tha ab has been reading kenneth grant again
<Aleister> that liber is not listed in the attachment
<Aleister> oh
<Serpente> Oh it is Moonchild
<heresy> Greetings all
<abrasax> yes, it's Moonchild
<Drwygg> hello,..
<abrasax> back then it was known as Butterfly Net
<Solar-ny> This really should be read after Book 4, part 1 where some terms and
correspondences are elaborated
<Solar-ny> regarding the weapons
<abrasax> this approach is taken in Crowley's Illustrated Goetia
<strych9> Wow.
<Serpente> Yes I think Moonchild is outside the range of our topic, it might be an
interesting discussion though
<Solar-ny> Wonderful book, lots of formulae are alluded to
<Aine> we should have a chat on it sometime, cuz i actually read it
<Solar-ny> abrasax is right, the cup must be filled
<Serpente> lets go on then unless anyone wants to say anything more about the cup
<Aleister> i did too
<abrasax> Bertiaux also used this formula a lot in his earlier workings
<Aleister> but a long itme ago
<el8one> i agree, Moonchild is quite interesting
<Inconnu> wretched literature, though
<Aine> yeah but interestin
<Aleister> go on serp
<Serpente> <*> The formula of the dagger is again unsuitable for either purpose,
since the nature of the dagger is to criticise, to destroy, to disperse; and all
true magical ceremonies tend to concentration.
<Serpente> The dagger will therefore appear principally in the banishings,
preliminary to the ceremony proper. The formula of the pantacle is again of no
particular use; for the pantacle is inert. In fine, the formula
<Serpente> of the wand is the only one with which we need more particularly concern
ourselves.
* Solar-ny loves his wand ;)
<Inconnu> ab: yes, but not with women much. micheal is a mostly XI* kinda guy ;D
<Serpente> What about this 'inertness' of the Earth pentacle?
<Sattva> I fundamentally disagree with this paragraph
<Serpente> Isnt he kind of brushing off quite a lot here?
<Aleister> there are earth currents
<Sattva> The dagger is used to separate. It has a very fundamental connection to
Binah, and of course Yetzirah.
<Aleister> i have felt more drawn to air
<Sattva> It and the wand are used, for example, in clearing a circle in ritual
<Solar-ny> To high up the tree, Sattva
<Serpente> Is he mixing the uses of the Dagger and the Sword here?
<Sattva> pardon?
<Aleister> yes serp
<Sattva> could be. This is my first exposure to Crowley's stuff on magic
<Solar-ny> Binah and the dagger
<abrasax> it is important that Crowley says here that these remarks will be
modified later on
<Aleister> both would correspond to swords in tarort
<Sattva> Solar: nope. Everything associated with Binah refers to the power of
limitation and separation. Binah is Saturn for instance.
<Solar-ny> dagger = air and alchemical mercury
<Sattva> I could go find ten or more connections between Binah and the dagger
<Sattva> yup
<abrasax> not everything associated with Binah is limitation-Babalon
<Solar-ny> I don't think much of this applies above the Abyss
<Sattva> Yes, it depends on the point of view. From the supernals, Binah is the
great palace of the king, the root matter, or the "earth which is formless and
void".
<Sattva> but exactly - we are taking this from below Binah
<strych9> limitation as in "restriction"?
<Sattva> Solar: there are quite a few conflicting symbol correspondences with
alchemical mercury and the worlds, etc.
<Sattva> yes
<Sattva> restriction, but apparent restriction
<Aleister> inhibition
<Solar-ny> dispersive energy
<Sattva> There is a lot of confusion, because the principles are often confused
with the elements, and are often referred to by the same names. The principles
are called fire, water, air, while the elements are called those and add 'earth'
<Drwygg> limitation? boundary?
<Sattva> I disagree with that one ... dispersion is really a function of Chokmah.
Binah is the alchemical water, coagulation
<Aleister> sattva, and it gets more confusing when spirit is attributed to water in
some contexts and to fire in others
<Sattva> Al: exactly
<Serpente> I dont think dispersion is so much the formula of the dagger (or sword)
but more separation discrimination
<Serpente> oops is=isnt
<Sattva> and of course, some treat it as the fifth element :-)
<Serpente> er.. what did I say :)
<strych9> Still wonder why the pantacle isn't worth discussing.
<Serpente> no it was ok as I said it :)
<Sattva> I'm with you there.
<Drwygg> i prefer, fire as spirit, and water as soul,..
<Sattva> Interestingly enough, the dagger is also associated with concentration of
force!
<Aleister> strych, perhaps he took an oath
<Solar-ny> Book 4 Part 1 The scourge, dagger, and chain represent the 3 principles
<strych9> heh
<Sattva> because all concentration is the narrowing of focus ... a limitation of
focus
<Drwygg> book shmook,..
<abrasax> part 2 solar
<Aleister> serp we will be here all night if we dont move on
<Sattva> the question is ... what *is* the formula of the pentacle?
<Serpente> hehe true
* Solar-ny stands corrected
<abrasax> materializing your evocations?
<Serpente> I'm still curious to see some comment on why the Earth pentacle might be
so easily dismissed
<Sattva> yes, but what method?
<strych9> What is the pantacle's correspondence on the Tree? Malkut?
<Sattva> me too, serp
<Aleister> why is the geomancy liber marked as altered and abridged?
<Sattva> strych: yes, that's one
<Serpente> perhaps since the pentacle represent fully manifested energy it has no
line of development or motion forward toward manifestion.. its already there.
<Sattva> the world of Assiah
<ANihilist> That's a good point, Serpente.
<Serpente> its only motion is toward decay
<Aleister> perhaps Crowley took an oath not to discuss certain classes of practice
<abrasax> al, because it was abridged from original GD material
<Tabytha> 93 kids;)
* Tabytha pounces on Mathy
<Serpente> well we can return to any of these points, lets keep on
<Serpente> <*> Now in order to invoke any being, it is said by Hermes Trismegistus
that the magi employ three methods. The first, for the vulgar, is that of
supplication. In this the crude objective
<Serpente> theory is assumed as true. There is a god named A, whom you, B, proceed
to petition, in exactly the same sense as a boy might ask his father for
pocket-money.
<strych9> Serpente: i'd accept that, but wouldn't that be worth saying in the text?
* Sattva thinks its time to move on
<Aleister> original GD material, heh heh heh
<Serpente> (strych9 I'd think he would have..)
<Serpente> <*> The second method involves a little more subtlety, inasmuch as the
magician endeavours to harmonize himself with the nature of the god, and to a
certain extent exalts himself, in the course
<Serpente> of the ceremony; but the third method is the only one worthy of our
consideration.
<Serpente> <*> This consists of a real identification of the magician and the god.
Note that to do this in perfection involves the attainment of a species of
Samadhi: and this fact alone suffices to
<Serpente> link irrefragably magick with mysticism.
<strych9> Again with the unworthy business.
<Sattva> hm. Well, the second method is used pretty regularly in certain
Qabalistic schools
<Aleister> in the context of the chapter
<Serpente> perhaps because neither of those methods acknowledges the true position
of the magus in relationship with the forces above and below him
<strych9> So, is the second method merely the third method without "some species of
samadhi"?
<Sattva> the "assumption of the God form" is certainly a valid form of magic,
although I certainly don't agree that it is the only method worthy of
consideration :-)
<Aleister> in some cases the contents of the chapter may be abridged to correspond
closer to the corresponding tarot trump
<Sattva> good question strych9
<Drwygg> to me, the first two methods look like they contain too much ego,...
<Sattva> I dunno about that. The second method is essentially like tuning a radio
<Sattva> you tune into the station by aligning your consciousness with the
vibrational level you are trying to tap into
<Serpente> perhaps there is an implied reluctance to allow transformation of the
self
<Sattva> It is essentially a form of theurgy. One steps aside and 'channels' a
certain vibration in, but they never identify with it. No ego there really
<Drwygg> i can still smell it there,... ; )
<strych9> To me, it appears the magician using the second method has a radio with
no antenna, so uses a Mr. Microphone to make his own broadcast based on what he
thinks he'd hear.
<Sattva> in order to do it effectively, one really must let go of the personal
ego...
<Serpente> it smakes of mediumship which Crowley abhored
<Serpente> smacks even
<Serpente> perhaps that is why he dismisses it
<Drwygg> that would be used in the third method,..
<Sattva> hm, that's an interesting angle
<Solar-ny> Exaltation vs. Identification, IMO, in 1 instance you are going up and
in the other bringing it down
<Sattva> as for not transforming the self, I think Crowley disagrees: "... and to a
certain extent exalts himself"
* Serpente notes another interesting topic for future discussion
<Serpente> shall we press on?
<foog> hello
<Sattva> :-)
<Drwygg> i think alot is lost in the third way, by saying it needs the attainment
of samadhi to be effective, well, you just gotta be there, and when there, you
are not 'bringing down' the 'god' by identification, but all levels appear the
same,..
<strych9> onward
<Solar-ny> that is, manifesting the God in the pantacle
<Serpente> greeting foog sit back and enjoy :)
<Sattva> Basically, however what this paragraph says is that "assumption of the God
form" is the only method worthy of consideration...
<abrasax> we could do discussion on mediumship, tie in with Moonchild
<Drwygg> make that, 'translation of the third way',..
<Sattva> that leaves a lot of magicians out in the cold...!
<abrasax> why only assumption of God form?
<Sattva> its the same method, no?
<Sattva> I think he means Samadhi in the sense of 'union'
<Serpente> Sattva perhaps in AC's usual style he is subtly poking his
contemporaries in a backhanded slap
<Drwygg> although i do like the ending of that, unifying magick and mysticism,...
<Aleister> because crowley was a mystic
<Aleister> and when your tool is a hammer all your problems look like nails
<Sattva> I think this is very possible, Serp :-)
<Sattva> well, I can point out an alternative method of magic ...
<Drwygg> perhaps he is saying a more passive than active method, is more effective
in the end,...
<Aleister> agreed
<Solar-ny> asumption of god forms is not the same as identifying with a God
<Serpente> AC was a mystic and his studies of raja yoga profoundly influenced him
<Sattva> first, the mystic attains to identification with himself (Tiphareth
consciousness). Then from that level, he attunes his vehicle with whatever
vibration he needs...
<Drwygg> oh, i thought the assuption was for the second method, the
harminization,...
<cybrWitch> 93
<abrasax> 93 cybrwitch
<Drwygg> but i do feel true attunement is more than just harminization,..
<Serpente> I also think this link between magick and mysticism was something AC saw
as one of his main purposes for his lifes work
<Drwygg> harminization implies two distinct vibrations,...
<Sattva> can't say I blame him
<Aleister> the rest of the chapter is associated with the third method
<Serpente> ok we better go in
<Serpente> on even
<Serpente> <*> Let us describe the magical method of identification. The symbolic
form of the god is first studied with as much care as an artist would bestow
upon his model, so that a perfectly clear
<Serpente> and unshakeable mental picture of the god is presented to the mind.
Similarly, the attributes of the god are enshrined in speech, and such speeches
are committed perfectly to memory.
<Aleister> the second method only directly aplies to this paragraph as far as i can
see
<Serpente> <*> The invocation will then begin with a prayer to the god,
commemorating his physical attributes, always with profound understanding of
their real meaning. In the "second part" of the invocation,
<Serpente> the voice of the god is heard, and His characteristic utterance is
recited.
* Sattva laffs!
<Drwygg> just a personal twitch whenever i hear 'god' in that way,.....
<Sattva> Well, the method of building the God form in the mind is essentially
Bhakti yoga
<abrasax> this whole method given here is very effective actually
<Sattva> and it is a great method, IMHO
<Serpente> <*> In the "third portion" of the invocation the magician asserts the
identity of himself with the god. In the "fourth portion" the god is again
invoked, but as if by Himself, as if it were
<Serpente> the utterance of the will of the god that He should manifest in the
magician. At the conclusion of this, the original object of the invocation is
stated.
<abrasax> gives results very quickly
<Sattva> this seems to correspond to Tetragrammaton
<abrasax> it does
<Sattva> Intent, the sounding of the word, identification (union), and manifestation
<ANihilist> G'night all.
<Serpente> <*> Thus, in the invocation of Thoth which is to be found in the rite of
Mercury (Equinox I, VI) and in Liber LXIV, the first part begins with the words
"Majesty of Godhead, wisdom-crowned
<Serpente> TAHUTI, Thee, Thee I invoke. Oh Thou of the Ibis head, Thee, Thee I
invoke"; and so on. At the conclusion of this a mental image of the God,
infinitely vast and infinitely splendid, should be perceived,
<Serpente> in just the same sense as a man might see the Sun.
<Solar-ny> yes, and it works well- the prep is important though for the images to
be maintained thru out the ritual
<Serpente> <*> The second part begins with the words:
<Serpente> <*> "Behold! I am yesterday, today, and the brother of tomorrow."
<Serpente> <*> The magician should imagine that he is hearing this voice, and at
the same time that he is echoing it, that it is true also of himself. This
thought should so exalt him that he is able
<Serpente> at its conclusion to utter the sublime words which open the third part:
"Behold! he is in me, and I am in him." At this moment, he loses consciousness
of his mortal being; he is that mental image which
<Serpente> he previously but saw. This consciousness is only complete as he goes
on: "Mine is the radiance wherein Ptah floateth over his firmament.
<Serpente> <*> I travel upon high. I tread upon the firmament of Nu. I raise a
flashing flame with the lightnings of mine eye: ever rushing on in the splendour
of the daily glorified Ra --- giving my
<Serpente> life to the treaders of Earth!" This thought gives the relation of God
and Man from the divine point of view.
<Serpente> (im going quickly here because he is really just giving an example of
his previous remarks)
<Serpente> <*> The magician is only recalled to himself at the conclusion of the
third part; in which occur, almost as if by accident, the words: "Therefore do
all things obey my word." Yet in the fourth
<Serpente> part, which begins: "Therefore do thou come forth unto me", it is not
really the magician who is addressing the God; it is the God who hears the
far-off utterance of the magician.
<Aleister> that and we have already gone an hour and a half
<Serpente> that too :)
<Serpente> <*> If this invocation has been correctly performed, the words of the
fourth part will sound distant and strange. It is surprising that a dummy (so
the magus now appears to Himself) should
<Serpente> be able to speak!
<Serpente> <*> The Egyptian Gods are so complete in their nature, so perfectly
spiritual and yet so perfectly material, that this one invocation is sufficient.
The God bethinks him that the spirit of
<Serpente> Mercury should now appear to the magician; and it is so. This Egyptian
formula is therefore to be preferred to the Hierarchical formula of the Hebrews
with its tedious prayers, conjurations, and curse
<abrasax> I think that you add more stuff as well
<Serpente> s.
<cybrWitch> I am sorry I only got here for the tail end of things
<Solar-ny> This is a template for others to experiment with, imo
<cybrWitch> could someone possibly send me a log?
<Serpente> cybr there will be a log on the #thelema home page
<Aleister> it will be posted on the channel page cyb
<cybrWitch> thanks serp
<Serpente> do /msg w chaninfo #thelema do get it
<cybrWitch> I was unaware of this discussion til a few minutes ago when someone
sent me email on it
<Serpente> (btw we will be moving the time and date started the next discussion,
see the page for details)
<cybrWitch> thanks
<cybrWitch> I will
<Serpente> ok Ill keep quoting until someone stops me :)
<Serpente> <*> It will be noted, however, that in this invocation of Thoth which we
have summarized, there is another formula contained, the Reverberating or
Reciprocating formula, which may be called
<Serpente> the formula of Horus and Harpocrates. The magician addresses the God
with an active projection of his will, and then becomes passive while the God
addresses the Universe. In the fourth part he remains
<Serpente> silent, listening, to the prayer which arises therefrom.
<abrasax> 93 93/93, I must leave now
<Serpente> interesting and not very controversial
<Serpente> <*> The formula of this invocation of Thoth may also be classed under
Tetragrammaton. The first part is fire, the eager prayer of the magician, the
second water, in which the magician listens
<Serpente> to, or catches the reflection of, the god. The third part is air, the
marriage of fire and water; the god and the man have become one; while the
fourth part corresponds to earth, the condensation or materialization
<Serpente> of those three higher principles.
<Serpente> . a basic recapitulation of most of what we've said already
<Serpente> <*> With regard to the Hebrew formulae, it is doubtful whether most
magicians who use them have ever properly grasped the principles underlying the
method of identity. No passage which implies
<Serpente> it occurs to mind, and the extant rituals certainly give no hint of such
a conception, or of any but the most personal and material views of the nature
of things. They seem to have thought that there
<Serpente> was an Archangel named Ratziel in exactly the same sense as there was a
statesman named Richelieu, an individual being living in a definite place.
* Solar-ny agrees
<Inconnu> i'm heading out.
<Serpente> dissing the contemporaries
<Serpente> later inconnu!
<Serpente> <*> He had possibly certain powers of a somewhat metaphysical order ---
he might be in two places at once, for example, though even the possibility of
so simple a feat (in the case of spirits)
<Serpente> seems to be denied by certain passages in extant conjurations which tell
the spirit that if he happens to be in chains in a particular place in Hell, or
if some other magician is conjuring him so that
<Serpente> he cannot come, then let him send a spirit of similar nature, or
otherwise avoid the difficultly. But of course so vulgar a conception would not
occur to the student of the Qabalah. It is just possible
<Serpente> that the magi wrote their conjurations on this crude hypothesis in order
to avoid the clouding of the mind by doubt and metaphysical speculation.
<Serpente> He is losing me here
<cybrWitch> heheh the idea of an archangle in chains makes me chuckle
<Sattva> that is an amusing angle, but there is a documented instance of bilocation
which can be found in Colin Wilson's "The Occult" ...
<Sattva> the person who did it wasn't even aware of the bilocation
<Sattva> Low is of the opinion that bilocation is a subconscious feat, and doesn't
require the attention of the intelligence
<Solar-ny> Some of this is to keep the rational mind at bay until the mage succeeds
<Serpente> interesting
<Heyokah> 93 all
<Serpente> 93 Heyokah
<Serpente> <*> He who became the Master Therion was once confronted by this very
difficulty. Being determined to instruct mankind, He sought a simple statement
of his object. His will was sufficiently
<Serpente> informed by common sense to decide him to teach man "The Next Step", the
thing which was immediately above him. He might have called this "God", or "The
Higher Self", or "The Augoeides", or "Adi-Buddha",
<Serpente> or 61 other things --- but He had discovered that these were all one,
yet that each one represented some theory of the Universe which would ultimately
be shattered by criticism --- for He had already
<Serpente> passed through the realm of Reason, and knew that every statement
contained an absurdity.
<Aleister> bilocation ain't all that unusual
* Serpente chuckles at the words 'common sense'
* Sattva runs and checks the gematria of 61
<Solar-ny> lol
<Serpente> <*> He therefore said: "Let me declare this Work under this title: 'The
obtaining of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel'",
because the theory implied in these words
<Serpente> is so patently absurd that only simpletons would waste much time in
analysing it. It would be accepted as a convention, and no one would incur the
grave danger of building a philosophical system upon
<Serpente> it.
<Aleister> ouch
<Serpente> Although he proceeded to build one don't you think?
<Sattva> 61 =
<Sattva> ADVN, Adon - master, lord, possessor - Psalm 97:5 - the root of ADNI (65)
<Aleister> yes, but undertaken as a deliberate absurdity
<Sattva> ALYK - alika, to thee, towards thee
<Sattva> ANY - Ani, I, myself
<Sattva> need I go on? hahaa got about 50 of these
<Serpente> excellent, thanks Sattva! :)
<Solar-ny> what system, Serpente?
<Serpente> Solar, his own system of attainment
<Serpente> or Thelema
<Solar-ny> I don't think it is built upon K&C of HGA
<Serpente> Thelema? Isnt that true Will identical with the K&C of the HGA
<Solar-ny> nope
<Aleister> if you were posessed maybe
<Solar-ny> It's a goal
<Sattva> seems there is room for a difference there... he could mean "universal
Will"... as opposed to the trans-personal Soul
<Sattva> Will meaning Chokmah and HGA = Tiphareth
* Serpente nods..
* Sattva notes that his date never showed up
<Sattva> typical
<Solar-ny> Yes, I love Wake World for it's description of the HGA as a companion on
this journey
<Serpente> Her loss and our gain Sattva ;)
<cybrWitch> date? what's that?
<Sattva> silly little pagan girl. I'll get even. I'll read her the 10 chapters or
so of "Tarot of the Bohemians" were Papus describes a divination system suitable
even for women.
<Serpente> ok lets see some more..
* Sattva laffs.
<Serpente> <*> With this understanding, we may rehabilitate the Hebrew system of
invocations. The mind is the great enemy; so, by invoking enthusiastically a
person whom we know not to exist, we are
<Serpente> rebuking that mind. Yet we should not refrain altogether from
philosophising in the light of the Holy Qabalah. We should accept the Magical
Hierarchy as a more or less convenient classification of the
<Serpente> facts of the Universe as they are known to us; and as our knowledge and
understanding of those facts increase, so should we endeavour to adjust our idea
of what we mean by any symbol.
<cybrWitch> lol
<Solar-ny> here we go........
<Sattva> yes, I don't see the mind as the great enemy. It is an obstacle though
<Sattva> but also a tool
<Solar-ny> He distances himself from the Hebrews after he published the Goetia ;)
<Sattva> I mean, w/o it, he could neither invoke nor get an effect. Is it really a
rebuke?
<Aleister> i think he means you cannot easily heckle a jugglet and expect good
results
<Aleister> that certain 'states' are required
<Aleister> and that applied rationalism during the process will inhibit these
<Solar-ny> I think he means the 'rational mind' so to speak, which would prevent
you from even reading this seriously ;)
<Sattva> oh I don't know
<Sattva> :-)
<Sattva> I don't see any problem with accepting the objective reality of different
vibrational states. After all, modern physics does it, eh?
<Solar-ny> Right, I started to look at something as if it were 'there' and it
disappeared :(
<Serpente> I think he is trying to create a kind of paradoxical koan to distract
the brain long enough for the desired result
<Sattva> these labels and god-forms etc. may just be links to those vibrational
states
<Sattva> Personally, I think this is just a typical Crowley jab at his peers
<cybrWitch> i appreciate this... it makes me feel better... i was crying in my bed
when i got the message to come here.
<Sattva> whom, I would think, would probably deny that the Hebrew system of
invocations needs rehabilitation...
<Aleister> sattva, i think use of terms like 'vibration' used in the context of
consciousness must be regarded as a metaphor
<Aleister> which may or may not overlap use of the same term in a science where it
has a specific definition
<Sattva> why a metaphor?
<DeadFish> why a duck?
<Sattva> Actually, I'm a referring to that definition!
<Serpente> OK one more quote and then I'm tempted to leave off the rest of the
chapter at that unless anyone objects.
<Serpente> <*> At the same time let us reflect that there is a certain definite
consensus of experience as to the correlation of the various beings of the
hierarchy with the observed facts of Magick.
<Serpente> In the simple matter of astral vision, for example, one striking case
may be quoted.
<Solar-ny> Please, what is a vibration?
<Serpente> ( he goes on to give an example)
<Aleister> i do have something to say about the next part
<Serpente> the part after the example aleister?
<Aleister> the probationer and venus?
<Serpente> ok I'll just keep hitting enter :)
* Solar-ny perks up
<Solar-ny> go ahead, Aleister
<Serpente> what is a vibration.. I call it an energy pattern
<Serpente> ok let me flood the rest of the example out
<Serpente> <*> Without telling him what it was, the Master Therion once recited as
an invocation Sappho's "Ode to Venus" before a Probationer of the A.'. A.'. who
was ignorant of Greek, the language
<Serpente> of the Ode. The disciple then went on an "astral journey," and
everything seen by him was without exception harmonious with Venus. This was
true down to the smallest detail. He even obtained all the four
<Serpente> colour-scales of Venus with absolute correctness. Considering that he
saw something like one hundred symbols in all, the odds against coincidence are
incalculably great. Such an experience (and the records
<Serpente> of the A.'. A.'. contain dozens of similar cases) affords proof as
absolute as any proof can be in this world of Illusion that the correspondences
in Liber 777 really represent facts in Nature.
<Aleister> it seems just as likely to me in the example given that the student was
drawing these symbols from crowley's mind as from something objectively valid
<Aleister> it seems just as likely to me in the example given that the student was
drawing these symbols from crowley's mind as from something objectively valid
<Solar-ny> good point
<Aleister> crowley himself warned us against doing that
<Serpente> Sort of like those UFO memories the hypnotists coax out of thier
'patients'
<Solar-ny> where did that student go? ;)
<Aleister> i also think rose kelly did the same thing
* Solar-ny disagrees there, but the student is in a more sympathetic atmosphere
<Serpente> You could argue that magick is nothing but subtle and not so subtle
brainwashing :)
<Solar-ny> Crowley reading to him, the student trying to project to somewhere....
<Aleister> well serp, i am allowing my thinking to be influenced by a man who died
in 1947
<Serpente> hehe
<Serpente> just imagine if he was sitting there in the same room reading an
invocation to you ;)
<Aleister> i think crowley was of a force of mind that the student might have seen
anything al was remotely thinking of
<Aleister> consciously or unconsciosly
<Serpente> seems possible
<cybrWitch> crowley is not was
<Solar-ny> to bad I can't read Greek ;)
<Aleister> cybr, his writing has slowed down, but he does get out a lot
<Solar-ny> well, night or morning all
<Solar-ny> 93 93/93
<Serpente> thanks for joining is solar!
<Serpente> us even :)
<Solar-ny> another fine job, ops
<cybrWitch> LOL
<Solar-ny> Thanks again
<Serpente> remember next time is different
<cybrWitch> yes, thank you very much.
<Serpente> I think we'll wrap it there
<strych9> awww
<strych9> :)
<Serpente> you want those last two paragraphs?
<Serpente> ok ok
<strych9> I am enjoying this.
<Aleister> you can keep talking strych
<cybrWitch> yes
<strych9> hehe
<Serpente> <*> It suggests itself that this "straightforward" system of magick was
perhaps never really employed at all. One might maintain that the invocations
which have come down to us are but the
<Serpente> ruins of the Temple of Magick. The exorcisms might have been committed
to writing for the purpose of memorising them, while it was forbidden to make
any record of the really important parts of the ceremony.
<Serpente> Such details of Ritual as we possess are meagre and unconvincing, and
though much success has been attained in the quite conventional exoteric way
both by FRATER PERDURABO and by many of his colleagues,
<Serpente> yet ceremonies of this character have always remained tedious and
difficult. It has seemed as if the success were obtained almost in spite of the
ceremony.
<Serpente> <*> In any case, they are the more mysterious parts of the Ritual which
have evoked the divine force. Such conjurations as those of the "Goetia" leave
one cold, although, notably in the second
<Serpente> conjuration, there is a crude attempt to use that formula of
Commemoration of which we spoke in the preceding Chapter.
<Serpente> and thats the end of the chapter
<cybrWitch> thanks
<Serpente> Here are the closing comments and then feel free to just keep talking :)
<Serpente> <*> That concludes our discussion tonight. Thank you for attending.
<Serpente> <*> We have decided that with summer approaching we would like to move
the discussion to a weeknight, and also begin an hour earlier. Our next
discussion is scheduled for Tuesday April 22nd
<DeadFish> Nerf goetia
<Serpente> at 9PM Eastern Daylight Time.
<Serpente> <*> Our next discussion will be on Chapter III - The Formulae of
Tetragrammaton. Logs of our previous discussion are availabe on the Undernet
#Thelema home page at:
<Serpente> <*> http://www.winternet.com/~robin/thelema.html
<Serpente> <*> We hope you have found this an interesting experience and thank you
for your contributions.
<Serpente> <*> Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the law,
love under will.
Session Close: Sun Apr 13 23:24:29 1997